Harware compatibility

[inexistence]

Hi, we're planning on purchasing a Server for use with Vicibox Redux. Can you tell me if this specs will work with Vicibox/OpenSuSe especially the board, we do not want to waste resources by purchasing a wrong hardware:

Intel X3430 processor (Quad Xeon 2.40Ghz)
Intel S3420GPLC motherboard with RAID capabilities

Thanks in advance.

[williamconley]

unfortunately this is the world of Linux. There are no guarantees of compatibility with specific hardware, although if you get lucky someone may have experience with a specific motherboard (so listing the mbd part number was a GOOD idea).

I will say this much from my experience:

As long as the motherboard was released more than a year ago, there are likely to be drivers on the latest redux release (3.0a/b that Kumba is putting together presently).

If it has been over 1.5 years since release, then the 2.0 download available on vicibox.com will also likely have drivers for it.

RAID drivers are debatable as well, sometimes there is a bit of a gap in mbd/RAID development for linux, but RAID can be disabled until they become available if that is the case.

Be sure you don't pay extra for "Xeon" unless you are using 8 cores or more (Xeon and Core2 are identical except that Xeon can go to 8 cores and Core2 stops at 4, assuming the same speed and cache, of course). So just don't pay more for a Quad Xeon 2.4Ghz with the same cache as a Core2Quad 2.4Ghz, because they are technically the same device (Unless you are putting more than one on a Mbd).

Don't be fooled that somehow the word "Xeon" gives it an advantage over Core2. Look at the specs, what is included in the CPU, and decide that way unless you are putting multiple processors in your box. Yes, cache makes a big difference, but the word Xeon does not.

[inexistence]

Thanks for that William.

We're planning to use Vicidial for 60-90 agents, pure SIP, predictive at 3:1, all recordings, and G729 codec.

Is it ok if we just use Core2Quad for the Vicidialer, and 2x Xeon Quad for the database? Like so:

Database
2x Xeon Quad
8GB RAM
SATA HDD on Raid 10


Vicidialers
Core2Quad
4GB RAM
SATA HDD on Raid 10


How many Core2Quad dialers do we need to fit a total of 90 agents? Any recommendations are welcome. Thanks

[williamconley]

as long as your "2X" Xeons are each 4 CPU (totaling 8 ) as opposed to "Dual Xeon" which is only a total of 2 CPUs.

I also do not recommend RAID on the dialers themselves, but if you're going all the way to RAID 10, it's cool (although I would love someone to put two dialers that were otherwise identical up with one being RAID 10 and one being Just a HD with a Spare HD not in use with an identical install and see if there is ANY noticeable difference between the two servers.)

that would actually make me a happy guy.

Compare call volume with CPU usage and latency and see if there's any difference at all. I would expect that level 10 RAID would reduce the differences to ZERO, which would mean that the only difference is reliability (RAID 10 would be capable of healing from a down much faster by simply turning off the dead RAID drive until a new drive is installed vs a reboot required to use the new drive on a dormant mirror).

I'd expect at least three actual dialers, and for a truly stable system you may need four (unless the TOP is 90 agents). Especially since you'll be using g729.

[Kumba]

Our ViciDial Mini servers are based on a Intel Core2Quad CPU and they work fine. We usually pair it with supermicro hardware and haven't had any complaints. All you are really gaining with a Single-CPU Xeon over a Core2Quad is just cache anyways. It's the same chip internally.

I wouldn't bother with anything other then a RAID-1 on the dialer. All recording is done to ram drive and the hard-drive is just used as an interim storage from RAM before being sent off to the archive. You can even use Linux RAID-1 (we do on our Mini servers) without any problems.

You are better off spending the extra cash and time on the database server (RAID, memory, HD's, etc) as that is where it really counts. Everything else is negotiable relatively speaking.

When dealing with hardware RAID, there is a negligible performance difference on a dialer between RAID-1 and RAID-10. We are talking single-digit percentage, if that. Hardware vs Software raid is a different story. That can easily be 10-15% (sometimes more) depending upon configuration, filesystem, kernel version, etc. For this specific reason we usually de-rate out Mini servers to 20 Agents outbound 4:1 with call recording, where as our regular SMB dialer can do around 25-30 with same load. The CPU and Memory and hard-drives are all comparable to each other, just different RAID set-ups (Software vs Hardware).

I would start with 3 dialers if the budget is tight, and have a Plan B to go with 4 if need be. You should also consider building an extra dialer and provisioning it to act as just the web server. Anything more then 75 agents or so will start to cause the DB and Apache process to fight each other for control. You would be right at that limit with 3-4 servers. Your mileage may vary, but at a minimum a dedicated web server should also be in your Plan B if nothing else.

[inexistence]

Great help

So we're now reviewing our requirements. With a bit of downgrade for the Database server since we already ordered that Single Quad Xeon. Is it ok if we go like this:

Database/Web Server
Quad Xeon
16GB RAM
10k RPM SATA HDD on Raid 10

3 Dialers
Core2Quad 2.83Ghz
4GB RAM
SATA HDD

Archive server
Existing Dell Poweredge 2850
2x Xeon (2 Cores)
4GB RAM
SAS HDD on Raid 10 (Recordings are valuable for us )

I believe we can fit in 25 agents per dialer, pure SIP, predictive at 3:1, all recordings, and G729 codec on this setup am i correct?

How about if we are on RATIO Dial method (1 line per agent), how much do you think we will be able to accomodate per server? 40-50 agents?

Thanks for your usual help guys,.

[williamconley]

What is the speed of the Database Web Server (and cache on all of them)? If it's lower than the dialer servers you would do better to skip Xeon and go with Core2Quad (which is cheaper for the same specs and is identical if the specs are the same, ie: speed and cache). if switching to core2quad will get you a faster cpu or more cache or less $$, SWITCH.

[inexistence]

it's an Intel Xeon x3430 8M Cache, 2.40 GHz. Since we're on an immediate requirement for this we couldn't back down on this one now cause we already have this server on hand, might be a bad buy but it's already here.

We can only adjust the dialer specs to Core2Quad since we don't have it yet.

[williamconley]

will it be possible (in the future) to upgrade that to an 8 CPU system (2X QuadXeon)? If so, wait until your load gets too high and call for the upgrade.

if not: check your cache on the Core2Quad ... if it is the same (or better!) use the core2Quad for the DB/Web and the 2.4Ghz Xeon for the dialer. (2.8Ghz for SQL/Web and 2.4Ghz for Dialer makes more sense if both have the same cache and # of CPUs)

[Kumba]

On the Database the actual speed/cache of the database is not as important as the amount of memory, and the r-IOPS (random IOPS) that the hard-drive array can handle.

Spend the money on a true hardware caching RAID controller (like LSI 8708ELP with BBU). This is worth every penny if you intend to grow or run for years uninhibited. No, it won't be cheap, a 4-drive 15K SAS RAID-10 setup will easily cost as much as the rest of the server. It will, however remove one of the biggest bottlenecks the DB will have going forward.

Second is memory, and it's cheap, so start at 8GB and run until you start hitting 90%+ of memory usage then add more memory. It should take you a year or two or another hundred users to hit it. 16GB is about the upper limit for most centers up to 250-300 users or so.

After you address the above, you can spend time on the CPU's. We don't put much more then 2.0Ghz quad-cores in our database servers. On a 300-seat cluster they usually run around 4-5 loadavg. ViciDial is an IO-intensive DB model not a processing-intensive one. The most the CPU's do is indexing tables and ordering query results. 90% of the processing is done via Perl scripts on the dialer or the Web server.

With your size, you can start with the layout you have, and migrate to a larger DB server later when you outgrow the current one. The DB server you have can easily stay the web server when that comes, making the migration somewhat transparent to everyone but the IT department. A quad-core 4-GB web server can do 150-ish users without much of a problem, and you can probably use a good chunk of that memory in the old database server in the new one if it's compatible.

[williamconley]

but since his DB was also Web, I suggested the Faster / Bigger CPU system for the DB/Web and the slimmer/slower for Dialers.

Adding a new DB server down the road would be next, and then tailoring that to pure DB is a great idea, but for now he will need a butt-kicker for DB/Web combined to support multiple dialers.

Yes?

[Kumba]

I've had clients use a single quad-core machine with 4-GB of ram and a 250-GB Linux RAID-1 as a DB/Web before on 70 agents and it worked. They couldn't load leads and run production at the same time, but it was a workable solution for them starting out. A couple of months later they bought a proper database server, moved the Database functions off the old server and onto the new one, then just repointed all the astguiclient.conf files to the new DB. The migration is transparent to everyone but IT since the web server and dialers never change IP.

The only problem the client has with the machine as their DB/Web was lack of memory and slow filesystem access. The single quad-core CPU never really maxed out. We have had many 125-150 seat centers easily operate on a quad-core CPU with a good amount of memory and RAID array.

On the dialers I go with a strict cost vs. performance methodology. If a 2.33Ghz CPU is $150, and a 2.5Ghz CPU is $155, I go with the faster one. It should also be noted that there is not a linear scale in performance between speeds of CPUs either. All you really need to look for in a dialer is a stable quality motherboard, a Quad-Core 2.0+Ghz CPU, 4GB of ram (8 if you want no doubts), and an enterprise-class SATA drive (Seagate ES, WD RE, etc). The most costly part of this whole arrangement is usually the motherboard. It is worth every penny to make sure you have a linux-stable motherboard. I've seen people (and have myself) in the past build ViciDial clusters on $50 consumer desktop boards with success, but they usually never last more then a year or two before components start to break down, or their limits are reached.

[inexistence]

Have now installed ViciBox_Redux.i686-2.0.2.iso | VERSION: 2.4-278 | BUILD: 100901-2055 on a single server setup.

Currently with 20 users on manual. What could be the normal load average that we should be getting? We're currently on Manual 1:1, all recordings, no compression Ulaw. For now we're getting around 1.5 to 2.0 averages, is this normal and can we add more users or go predictive?

[mflorell]

Server hardware specs? (RAM/CPU/DRIVES/etc...)

[inexistence]

Specs are:

Quad Xeon 2.40Ghz
8GB RAM
10k RPM SATA HDD RAID 1

[mflorell]

You should be able to go up to 3:1 dial ratio with that hardware given that you are using an average contact-ratio list. I would start with 2:1 for a few hours and see how it goes, then you can ramp it up slowly to find your operating capacity.

[inexistence]

I see, how about if we stick to Manual 1:1, can we still add more users around 30-40 users maybe?

[williamconley]

are you recording all calls, sales only, or nothing?

use the Admin->Server load values (or htop, which I prefer) to keep an eye on your load.

and pre-cluster an "extra" dialer just in case (even a cheap machine WILL reduce your load if you set it up)

on the other hand, if you can't do that because of "colo" concerns ... keep an eye on your load and make sure you have lots of bandwidth available to try to avoid any more compression than necessary.

[inexistence]

We record all calls.

Our load average as i have said ranges from 1.5 - 2.0 with 20 agents on 1:1. What could be the normal load average limit of a fully utilized dialer? I mean if we reach around 3.0- 4.0 load ave can we still add more users or is this the limit?

We're still planning on adding 2-3 more servers, maybe multiserver clustered/load balanced. One of which will be the DB/Web server and the others clustered dialers. Maximum target users in the long run is 90 or more users, in predictive 3:1 if possible.

[williamconley]

you reach your limit when either call quality suffers or you have "unexpected" call handling (call goes to the wrong place, is rejected, or fails ...something unusual like that).

the magic number seems to be around 50% load in my experience with htop (8 processors should allow 4.0 before you need to keep an eye on it).

but having another machine to add on as a dialer (pre-clustered) to remove SOME load just in case is a good idea (so that on the day you hit your barrier, you have a way to immediately back off the barrier).

however, one of the least expensive versions of clustering is to merely remove the mysql server. simplest way to go: use a vicibox installer to build it (the new 3.0.0 mysql builder may be good for this, but any vicidial server builder will do), then all you need to do is sync the time (not "command line" sync, but actual ntp sync) and move your database (and notify /etc/astguiclient.conf of the new location).

this reduces load dramatically and immediately and yet rather inexpensively to "get back below the 50% load barrier" and buy time to "cluster" properly.

[inexistence]

If at 50% then at least clear about that. Since we are still planning on relieving the dialers of the DB/Web service, i guessing we can go up to 30+ users at 1:1 on one dialer, and then maybe at 3.0 load we'll stop adding more users.

Anyway, i've got another question. Since we are using Vicibox, can it be used together with VicidialNOW/Goautodial, or there will be issues like incompatible database fields/columns.

[williamconley]

I have not mixed them, personally, but in theory they should not have any problem mixing as long as your vicidial versions are the same. (SVN is very useful for this).